Nice deflect.
Do I have to say anymore. I’m sure you deal with lots of lapses
Give me a break. When you come up with a solution bstanatife argument to support your “opinion” let me know. Otherwise this has become a pointless conversation.
I don’t think there is a “solution” anyone needs to come to. It’s just a fact, you are a cheap, greedy guy. Not that it’s all bad. But it’s pretty easy to see what kind of subs you look to hire, and what kind of a business you run.
I don’t think profits are evil. But I think you see yourself as some kind of big wig, that thinks people should kiss your shoes because you offered them a little work. You view subs as underlings and even though they are self employed and in business, you see them as employees.
Personally, I’m not opposed to subbing. Here is how it will go:
“Sure, I’d be happy to bid the work. I don’t care what you charge your client above and beyond my price. Sure, I will give you up to 30 days to pay me after completion/billing. Sure, I’ll sign a contract agreeing to not pursue them for myself as long as I am subbing for you.”
That’s what is standard in my area of operations… I’m not opposed to bantering about price a little bit, but if they offered me half, they can TRY to get someone else. Screw that kind of attitude.
If you can’t do the work, 30% is better than 0%. If you are determined that you would not just let that work slip away, then you should have enough employees to do the work. Your employees are YOUR workers that do what you say, because YOU are their sole source of income. I, as a self employed business owner, do NOT have my eggs all in one basket. We all might “work for somebody”, but I work for many “somebodies” and losing one of them isn’t going to bankrupt me. I know how to, and do very well at, finding “somebodies” to pay me what I ask for my services.
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I’m not cheap at all. Your just ignorant and can’t seem to grasp business and economic concepts that are standard business practices. The concepts seem to go over your head. It’s like trying to teach a kindergartener algerbra. No matter how simple you break it down for them their just not going to get it. I’m done wasting my time and valuable information. Have a good one.
Ok I apologize for calling you ignorant. I should not have insulted you (even though you called me cheap). Forgive me.
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This is actually how we subcontract in construction - the GC will show me the scope and I’ll give my price. He will take my price and compare with other subs if he wishes. Then he adds his percentage anywhere from 10 to as much as 50 percent from what I’ve seen.
The good GCs never come in and tell me the price I’m working for. That’s probably why this approach of getting half of fair market value doesn’t sit well with most here.
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Started on The glass at 4:00 am this morning. Nice and quite out so lots of time to think. This discussion crossed mind and it occurred to me that we are just looking at it from different perspectives.
You are looking to grow a company and make mineybas a business owner so you want top dollar for jobs and want to maximize your price. I get that. As a business owner at this point I wouldn’t even sub contract at all directly for another window cleaner because my goal is long term investment and growing my customer base, not just making money today. There are those guys who have well established companies who may have extra jobs that cone up and they don’t mind sending it your way for 30% if they would otherwise let it go. I also get that as I have friends with companies who throw stuff my way when theirntoo busy for nothing and I do the same with them if it’s not a job I want or it’s too big of a job for me to manage and I do it for free. Thats where I see you coming from.
Where I am comikg from though is a different perspective altogether. I’m liking at it from a company perspective where their business model is using subs in place of full time employees. There are several very large and smaller companies here that take that approach. They are looking to sub out every job. Because of this it doesn’t make sense forbthe to sub out at mrkenthan 50%. It would defeat the purpose of being in business. They could just as easily higher full time employees for much less as apposes to 70% for a sub.
I subbed for a ton of different companies when I started out and everyone of them who used subs as their main source of labor was always 50% and a few even tried to go less at 40%. I never saw anything higher than that for a company who mainly used subs, large or small.
I also have used toms of suns over the years and it has always been at 50%. I had one sub who I have 50% because I knew the guy well but that was an exception to the rule. I have kicked work to other guys but when I do I give it for free and its their customer.
If I was a sub how much I asked for would depend on how busy I wanted tonstay with sub work. If I had very little work of my own I would sub at 50% because I wouldn’t stay as busy any higher than that. If I just need a few jobs to fill the gaps I could ask for higher but I wouldn’t expect anything steady coming from one source at a higher rate. There are plenty ofngius whonjust want to sub and their not interested in growing a company. They make good money and keep their over head low. They for have brand new vehicles and fancy wraps. That doesn’t make them illegitimate. They just have different goals. If they are fast and hire a helper they can make great money.
It all depends om yoir goals and what you want out of aub contracting.
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Sub contracting varies, if it’s window cleaning company to window cleaning company versus Sub contracting directly to a GC for a construction site.
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We can’t compare subing for a GC with subbing directly for another window cleaner. It’s not apples to apples.
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Yes and no. I like your previous post about the caliber of window cleaner being hired. That’s what makes the difference. A company looking for high quality service work for their customer will take your bid and add a percentage. Think about the CCU jobs we do. We show up, give a bid and he contractor adds to it. They don’t tell you what you are going to charge.
Honestly, companies that run primarily off of subs are greedy in my opinion and I would bet skirting the employment laws. The guys here that hire employees, pay all the extra expenses and deal with all of the crap that employees cause know the difference.
Remember, no matter the job scope or the reasoning - subbing for 50% is asking the company to work for half of market value. If they are good with that, fine. But you are likely only hiring a starving or incompetent cleaner.
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Not necessarily true as we all know how much prices vary company to company.
Of course, but I think you get my point.
That is completely false and what youbare saying doesnt add up. You say you make 100 an hour which 40% would be 50 an hr. Now you say someone making 50 an hour is starving. Lol. Clearly that’s ridiculous and not true. Thats 100 grand a year.
Your numbers don’t add up.
On top of that how is subbing jobs legitimately under the law cheating the law? That is ridiculous. Subbing is perfectly legal and an excepted practice as long as you follow guidelines.
We’re good. I understood you were just getting worked up. Maybe I should not have used the word cheap, but I did mean you appeared “cheap” in a stingy way. Not that you were a bucket bob.
You think 50 an hour is 100K a year? So are you saying you guarantee your subs 40 hours of work a week?
I doubt that…
It’s all relative. Some guys work a few jobs a week, some a few jobs a day.
Maybe a better way to look at it is, how much gross, are you passing to a sub per year or even a month?
I never herd of a wondow cleaning company being prominently a sun contractor. I’ve herd of it in the construction business
I’ve been around Window cleaning since the late 80s. I’ve seen high school friends work in the business an start therr own businesses
I had one friend who worked for a company they paid him a 1099 an he got half of any house he did for them.
Mind you … no we’re near a business owner !!!
The proper word is frugal and its how most companies stay competitive and prosper. I have to be frugal as a business owner so why wouldn’t I expect a sub to do the same?
As for guaranteeing a sub 40 hrs a week, it’s not my job to guarantee a sub 40 hrs a week. I am actually by law suppose to encourage a sub to get work elsewhere on top of what I give them. If I am a subs sole source of work then he is not truly a sub he is a full time employee.
As a sub you have the freedom to get tour work from any source and even tour own jobs. With that freedom comes responsibility. It’s a subs responsibility to source work. 100 grand a year is based on a sub who keeps his schedule full which is reasonable to expect if he is subbing at 50%. It’s not reasonable at 70% as that is very much outside the norm.
Again we go back to how the value of a sub is determined which is economic principles is based on the next best a comparison of the value of the next best alternative and that would be an employee.
It is standard business practice for the target of your labor to be 30% of gross revenue. Thats not my number but what any business expert will tell you. There are exceptions to that rule but their are factors that contribute to the exceptions.
This means that as labor rates rise do to inflation so does the pay. It is a percentage. Also as you increase the price to the customer the pay also increases. A percentage is not a value in itself.
Because of this if I a business model that’s uses subs will have to compete with a model that uses employees. Because of this the 30% mark will always determine the value of a sub. You have to compare the value of what you get with a sub vs an employee and compare how much you are paying and that determines how much a business owner is going to pay a sub.
There my be guys who don’t understand this and pay higher but that is not how most businesses operate. 30% is standard. Against not my number.
I can’t speak for anywhere else but my area and there are a lot of companies that use a sub only business model. Some large companies and some small.
Exactly… So you can’t say paying a sub 50% (or about 50 an hour) is actually equating to 100K a year.
That’s not true either. If he is self employed and carries his licenses and insurance like he/she is supposed to, they are not an employee, so long as they are truly treated as a sub and not an employee.
If his schedule was full, he wouldn’t be waiting for someone to call him about work… Again, like has been suggested, only the type of person who is new, or just not very good, would want sub work for half of what the work is worth. Hence, why there schedule isn’t full.
A sub and an employee are not the same, or even in the same plane. There is a world of difference in what an employee’s responsibility is (and your responsibilities as an employer) and what a sub’s responsibilities are.
I’ve heard Bruce and a few others, actually say that it’s 40%, not 30%. Maybe I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure that’s what they said.
The only way labors costs increase is worker screw ups, benefits costs increases, or giving a raise. Around me, what employers are paying is about the same as it was in 1993 when I moved here. It explains partially, why they have a hard time finding employees too.
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