Let me answer that for you. A guy who doesn’t have all the over heads. Period !!!
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A sub is experienced where a temp wont likely even be able to squeegee or work alone.
I have seen and know companies here still give 50%-60% to subs. The subs are making about $50+ an hour
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I have never been a sub or used subs but I wouldn’t be a sub for less than 80%. If that means I won’t get the work than I can accept that risk.
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Oh boy. Where to even bgin with this.
“Ok… If you are being honest, why would you consider a sub at 50% when you can hire a temp at 10-20%? You claim you can get a sub for very little, so why is a sub ever more valuable than a temp?”
Now your starting to see the point. A sub isn’t that valuable and certainly not over 50%.
As for your direct question the answer should he obvious. A temp employee is general labor and not skilled labor depending on your tenp source.
If your using a temp service and the worker has no experience then you can only give them basic tasks, but there are a lot of basic tasks that can be done that greatly speeds up the job for yourself or your regular employees. On residential jobs they can clean the screens, brush down the window openings, clean the outside tracks, clean the inside tracks, move furniture, put the furniture back, clean sills etc. On commercial jobs they can wet the glass for you. I use to use my friends as temps on commercial jobs when I first started. They would just wet tue windows in front of me while I squeegees them down. Cut my time in jobs in half. If they have no experience then the pay is less.
There are also those temps that are more qualified. I have used temp employees with all different levels of window cleaning experience and oay then accordingly. I’ve had temp employees that I’ve paid $25.00 an hour because they could produce accordingly. We have a local window cleaning supply store and there are always newbies who want to learn and guys moving into town with experience who need work. I’ve used all kinds of tenp employees. I rarely sub residential jobs and prefer to pick up a temp employee because I am on the job with them.
The bennefit of a sub is you can just give them the job and they handle it. So that’s why I might use a sub over a temp employee.
“My 100% is based on fact and my own numbers.”
What numbers? You ahvent presented any.
" I know what it costs daily for fixed costs, and what my costs to do the work are."
So your telling me that your liability insurance, vehicle expense, equipment cost, and supplies are more than 20% of the gross revenue? What do you drive back Porsche to your jobs?
I"Whyso dumb to do the work for 50% when I can go bid the same job you did for 90-80% of your price?"
Because they clearly aren’t calling your to bid the job. Otherwise why would you be subbing to begin with?
" I’d obviously have more value to offer since it would be me or my employees doing the work, and the client would not have to deal with whoever I sold the work to."
You only think this because you don’t understand the value beyond the window cleaning itself. There is way more value that goes into why a customer would use one company over another. If you understood that you would never make this statement.
“So I DO understand economics, quite well as a matter of fact. You claim employees are 30% of your cost. The only way that could be so, is if you pay diddley. Workers comp, unemployment, benefits, tools for them, and all the costs that are directly associated with employees, is hard to cover at 30%, if you pay them well.”
First this isn’t an economic principle but a sound business practice. The economics principle I was referring to was determining value which in economics is based on comparing it to the next best alternative.
As for the sound business priciple of 30% for labor cost it is a proven model and is what is recommended by nearly everyone who has experience in business. There are exceptions to that rule but even the exceptions are still the same when you calculate the reason for the adjustment of percentage.
As for 30% being a “diddlley” pay rate a percentage is not a value in and of itself so that comment makes no sense. 30% of $200.00 a day is diddlley. 30% of $1200.00 a day is not Diddley at all. Your also not factoring in different rates of pay for different levels of experience that work together to make up that 30%. A starter ng employee is not going to make as much as a seasoned employee. Together their compensation should be targeted at 30% of gross revenue.
“I don’t know how it is where you are, but I have NEVER heard of here, or anywhere, where offering the sub 50% as standard or even wise.”
I’ve been in window cleaning for over 20 years and 50% for a sub has always been standard.
" You bid a job at 100% of your price to cover expenses and make a profit. If it were really profitable to sub at 50%, you’d be doing it whenever you could."
There are down sides to using subs. I would rather use employees. You have more control over employees which will generally produce a better overall outcome to the cusomter which is a bennefit to me as a business owner. Customers tend to get turned off by using subs, especially in residential. Commercial is not as big a deal. With residential it is actually a bennefit to customers when you can tell then you don’t use subs. I rarely use a sub in residential for that reason and avoid it at all cost. I would rather use and employee. Even a temp employee before a sub. This makes my point even more. A sub is not that valuable even at 50%. Most of the companies using subs on residential effectively are doing so illegally. They are using full time subs and the customer sees then as full time employees.
“If you think 50% of your price is the cost of marketing, office, and billing/collections, you are nuts.”
Your forgetting the profit which is the whole reason for being in business to begin with. That why we do what we do. Not simply so we have somewhere to go every day.
“So why did you ever stop doing sub work? You claim it’s very profitable…”
Because even though it is more profitable than being an employee it isn’t as profitable as owning your own company and doing your in jobs.
" Just think, if you followed your own advice of hiring cheap labor, you could sub out all kinds of work, have a workforce of low paid workers, and only have to work a few hours a week sending out billing. Wouldn’t THAT offer you more of the lifestyle you desire?"
I do follow my in advice. That’s why I know it’s good advice and I don’t pay cheap. I say good money according to qualifications. It’s not about whether or not you use expensive or cheap labor. It’s about whether or not you can build a successful business model around the choices you make. I use cheap and expensive labor. I just know how to fit it into my business in a way that makes sense and in the end yields good results for my business. I think that is what we are all trying to do. If you listened a little more instead of assuming you know better you might actually learn something.
“IF you are hiring a LEGIT sub, then who in their right mind, is going to work for half?”
What is considered a legit sub to you vs an illegitimate sub?
A legit sub is a guy like me. Who has the overheads if a typical business. Nit like the guys you use who have no over head
So therefore 50% is fine an they can live with it.
I sub a handful of route jobs from different companies all paid decent , but not what I would normally get.
I do very little resi sub work , but I do get offered , An it’s either I get what I want or I don’t do it.
I don’t sub anything myself , don’t want to be bothered , but here is an example of what happens , An if I had a decent sub I could make something rather getting nothing
Dont care who you are we all deal with it someone who calls an you can’t fit in.
So if you had some subs that you paid fair you could make some xtra money
Maybe it’s a 1000 job 300 for doong nothing isn’t bad.
Most companies out here don’t sub to make a living. The have employee to make a living. Or do the work themselves to make 100%.
To be fair, Mike, there are a lot of guys not quite like us, who have their own equipment and insurance, but the rest of their game is not on point. They don’t have wrapped vehicles, websites, a strong lead flow, invoicing software, etc.
They qualify as legit subs, but don’t have the same overhead you and I have. They will likely never be as successful as business owners, but that’s not a priority for them. I know a number of self employed individuals like this.
For them, with their lower costs, if it comes down to some money or no money, they’ll take 50% of a higher ticket than they’re used to charging. They might still make 80% of what they would’ve made on one of their own (underpriced) jobs.
I agree with you that well established companies like you and I have; it wouldn’t make any sense for us to sub for the same prices that many companies apparently want to pay their subs. But there are a ton of guys who are great at what they do, but will never be “well established”, and will likely have less business as well as personal expenses.
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Honestly, this thead is kind of going down a rabbit hole of sorts.
Personally, I wouldn’t sub for 50% unless the contractor is on the job and we are knocking out the work together. I’ve subbed out guys before, and that is what I’ve done - “you help me out in a pinch, and I’ll split it with you”.
Most self respecting, capable businessmen would not work for half the price. We don’t let customers set our value - be it a homeowner or another window cleaner.
To me, a sub that works consistently for 50% of market value must not be capable of runnng his own jobs or doesn’t have the skill to charge the 100% of value. Neither of which I would ever allow near my business working unsupervised.
Just my thoughts.
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I agree totally An well said @Infinity an @TexasRich
Rich I do the same. I jace guys we do jobs together at 50/50
That phone call in the pic was from another window cleaner who sent him my way cause he couldn’t do it. He just gives them my number doesn’t expect anything. Not a friend either !
Very well said Alex. I am off on my legit sub your right. The over head is the difference
An me seeing if another fellow window cleaner can do the job. No subbing just if you can do it it’s yours
That’s how I do it with companies like mine.
I couldn’t even imagine Saying I want 50%. Gooodness !!! 
You never answered the question. I especially like how you assume to know who my subs are and how they are outfitted. Lol. So foolish.
A legitimate sub contractor is a guy who has a vehicle in good condition, the equiment and supplies needed to do the jobs, has the training and skill to get the job done. We can also go include having their own liability insurance (even though they can be covered under your insurance if you have the coverage and I always carry insurance to cover subs in case they fail to carry it in have a laps).
There are no other requirements to be a qualified sub contractor. You act like its rocket science. You are trying to make it complicated to support your position on the matter. You keep making this general statement of “all the overhead” as if there is so much. Lol. There is hardly any over head in window cleaning.
Maybe the problem is your window cleaning skills. How much work can you produce in a day? Maybe you need to up your productivity a little bit. If you can’t make good money subbing at 50% you must not be very productive.
I think the problem is you are confusing a sub contractor with being a business owner. There not your jobs. Your not the business owner. You are doing the job for another business not direct to the customer and out of that job the business owner is going to take, not inly his expenses, but PROFIT! He is not in business just to sub jobs to you. He is in business to make money.
The entitlement mentality is rediculous. Some guys think they should be handed everything and if they don’t get it they throw a temper tantrum.
If you can’t make good money cleaning windows at 50% your doing something wrong. Your not going to make as much as a business owner but you shouldn’t expect to either. You are going to make more than an hourly employee though.
Sorry man, but I’m not buying what your selling here. It’s starting to sound like a customer trying to beat me down on pricing with faulty logic.
Personally, my productivity is very good. Quick, efficient and quality. The result? 100/hr on residential.
In order to sub for you, I’d have to leave half on the table an/or run like a squirrel with it’s tail on fire. And even still, I couldn’t even split the difference in our rates.
No one says give it all to the sub, but if you hire a quality guy, who does quality work, he should earn quality pay. And half ain’t getting it.
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So your saying $50.00 an HR is not good money? Lol!
Nope, not when I average twice. Do you earn 50/hr?
That’s the point I am making. This isn’t about comparing it to what you could otherwise make. My point is as a business owner what makes sense for me to pay a sub?
Your argument was you can tmake good money as a sub at 50%. So let’s define what good money is?
The median household income for the US is like $54,000.00.
$50.00 an hour is double that. Sure we need to take out some for our overhead but even then your still well above that.
We’re shouldn’t be looking to pay a sub what a business owner makes. It’s not apples to apples.
Let’s stop with this entitlement mentality.
Maybe we should be paying the guy working the McDonald’s drive thru $50.00 an hr? Isn’t he entitled to make “good money”?
I’ve got to say, I’m a little surprised at you with this. You’re sounding like the customers that question our prices and try to tell us we are worth less than we charge. You know the ones - they figure we did a 200 dollar job in a couple of hours and start to do the math. They look at their hourly wage and wonder why we should charge so much. Or, they know of others that do it cheaper - 20 window houses for 99. Isn’t 99 for two hours work a good living they (you) say?
If you get the subs for $.50 on the dollar, power to you. But I’d be willing to bet that you wouldn’t work for half the rate unless you were on tough times. And apparently, most here wouldn’t either. If you want me, you gotta pay. Not 100%, but more than half. It’s not entitlement, it’s my personal value. If you are looking for labor that does not think their work is of value, go on down to the Home Depot parking lot. There’s always some folks that will work for whatever you say they are worth and thank you for it.
Anyhoo, I’m crawling out of this rabbit hole and on to something noble and worthy of my time - the up coming fantasy football draft.
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