xecutiv, I wanted to weigh in on the comment you made about ‘how you don’t know why anyone would ever sign a waiver…’
The big CCU job that my company did last year was for a billion dollar construction company that specializes in remarkably unique glass buildings. When I presented the Project Manager with the Scratch Waiver, they immediately signed it, and responded “no problem, this is standard procedure”.
Billion dollar glass folks, standard procedure.
Perhaps not in your area of the US, but definitely in other areas, and worldwide too.
Dan and his employees use sharpened broad knives in a quick motion that mimics the pattern of the scratches viewable in the photo.
I need an explanation regarding why fabricating debris is not the cause of the scratches as opposed to “blade too thick, not sharp enough, too much pressure, banging the blade.”
IF fabricating debris is present, then any scraper action will result in scratches, no? None of your four reasons (plus your previous “glass not wet enough”) logically (per my experience) make sense to me.
How could Dan remain in business completing 4,500 homes per year IF his techniques were “gauranteed (sic) to scratch?”
Obviously since I dont have scratches after my ccu work by insisting the builder cover glass and using 0000steelwool and light scrape if needed did I just solve your "unavoidability " issue?
My approach is we as the professional cleaners should take the extra steps to complete the work on our sites at a professional level and by doing so inform the builders /construction companies and they can help us in the battle with manufacturers to reduce the fab. deb. issue together? So there is a way but many rather leave scratches and think that helps in the battle with manufactures I prefer my way and so does my customer.
I believe your missing the point to a certain extent! Our whole aim as window cleaners is to educate anyone & everyone with regards to poor quality heat treated glass. The point i think your missing is…even if the glass is properly covered through the entire phase of construction it does very little for the “Unexpected & Uneducated” window cleaner.
There is no such thing as scraping too hard or a blade ie: scraper or broad knife being too thick or dull. I can take ANY scraper run it across the ground asphalt you name it wipe it off and take it to a dry piece of “Quality” heat treated glass and not scratch it!
I do an enormous amount of CCU’s as well as scratched glass consulting and can tell you there is more BAD glass out there then…i care to mention.
Until your get in a scratched glass case/lawsuit you have no idea the ramifications involved. Yu can take the easier softer way but…eventually it will bite you in the A-- trust me & you can take that to the bank my friend;)
Been having PC’s issue’s been down for well over a week sure is good to be back in the saddle:D
[QUOTE=Sparkle Window Cleaning;2275] The point i think your missing is…even if the glass is properly covered through the entire phase of construction it does very little for the “Unexpected & Uneducated” window cleaner.
I was told here a few times that Dan Fields is very, very knowledgeable on the issue but in a sample waiver he posts it states “If builder does not choose for window cleaner to use razorblades or scrapers,builder must cover all glass during entire construction process which would protect all glass from any construction debris and could eliminate the need for window cleaning company name to use razorblades and scrapers to clean glass.”
On Dan Fields (the fabricating debris godfather as some may say here) website it states that dry scraping will cause scratches? You say otherwise?
As far as unexpected and uneducated window cleaners that the price they pay if they get into a line of work without full working knowledge of thier line of work. Good reason for mandatory certification is to guarantee the education is learned.
As far as scraping dry yes…its not advised but…what i refer too is merely an example.Many do it Dan himself Jim Willingham and a few others including myself merely to prove a point.
That good quality heat treated glass will not scratch even with running the blade across cement,asphalt etc then wiping it off and taking it to the glass.
I know several who snip the corners off of the blades to avoid breaking it when scraping especially near edges.
Fact of the matter is…we need to educate everyone window cleaners,homeowners & builders alike.Not sure if you’ve seen the latest out from Gana but…its quite obvious they are not budging on the issue.
Im all for proper education & a waiver especially on CCU but…when we deliberately help out builders by using alternative methods we do NOTHING for the real problem and…as i mentioned eventually a window cleaner (not educated) is going to possibly cause damage if…a blade is used on poor quality heat treated glass.
when we deliberately help out builders by using alternative methods we do NOTHING for the real problem QUOTE]
I do understand your point. The way I am cleaning my ccu I charge more $ which encourages the builders to voice concern to manufacturers to cut cost.
My experience from builders is that when the fabricating debris is pointed out to them it is from me the window cleaner. By this time the home is to be turned over to the homeowner, and they find they need to replace some windows in a hurry. The problem is they get the window replaced at no charge but the manufacturer does not pay for the removal and proper replacement of the unit. Thanks for your response
My perception (and widesread reporting from WC’ers) is that an increased charge for CCU cleaning pales in comparison to replacement cost (product and labor), and is not encouragement enough to solve the real problem.
So when you say replacement cost(product and labor) does this mean the glass manufacturers costs if glass is returned due to defects? Should we scrape knowing the scraper will scratch the glass with fabricating debris so it gets sent back to the manufacturer ? Is this the encouragement you feel will solve the problem?
I appreciated your suggestion to use an Unger Trim 10 for major scraping. In trying to order the scraper, I came across two different products with the same(?) name.
For major scraping, I would recommend a Triumph 6" scraper – more efficient and ergonomic.
BTW, I’ve used both of the Unger 4" scrapers you noted. The original Trim 10 has the ability to utilize a handle. The second, green scraper is named Pro Trim 10.
One of the problems with this ongoing argument is we are talking about individual issues and industry issues. I see both sides believe me.
As an industry the largest problem is by far Fabricating Debris. As an industry we have to have very strict stances with GANA and not take responsibility for the Crap Glass that continues to be produced. Understand that that stance cant waiver. If it does at all GANA makes progress.
This problem though is being fought on the backs of the small guy. I dont know about you but the GC’s in my area dont give two cents about the window cleaning industry their only care is that the glass get cleaned in a professional manner. The other problem is that they dont neccessarily dictate what glass goes into the building. They send it out to bid and the cheapest guy puts in the glass of his choice as long as it meets architectual standards. If we as individuals though want a chance at ever winning this thing we will have to think as an industry and not as individuals.
I think we are winning. There was a case in California here a couple months ago and I had the lady send me a copy of the court records. The judge basically made the contractor and her liable. But his wording was very favorable towards us window cleaners if a couple things would have happened. I am not going into detail unless some one wants to know. However, in the State of Cali you now have a case that has set a precedence. We need more of these cases out in the open and viewable on these forums and in other places so that we are fully prepared. I bet you take that case into a GC in Cali and I bet he has a little different attitude about the glass.
I’ll answer all these w/ a few simple facts - we didn’t manufacture the bad glass, we didn’t get the construction debris on the glass, and the scraper isn’t scratching the glass - the defect on the product is.
If this were tainted peanut butter and a few people had gotten sick… well I think you get the point, no one does anything until they are adversely affected by the situation. When the builders or suppliers have to pay to get a few houses of glass replaced then they will pressure the fabricators to clean up their act.
Im bidding on a new commercial building, alot of scraping will be required to remove stickers,debris etc. I brought up the fd waiver within the first five mins of speaking with builder, explained what fd was, he said he had heard of said sure he’ll sign- didnt even hesitate- wasnt a big deal at all. He also is looking for a wcer to do ccu on other commercial projects, so im keeping my fingers crossed I get this one.
Good job Sharen. Shows, much like Kevin D’s earlier comment regarding his HUGE CCU job back in 2006, builders don’t think waivers are unprofessional. I’m sure your efforts to make this issue known will not only save you if FD is on the glass, but will also benefit all of us window cleaners.
