FD Education

I have a couple questions and some thoughts that I figured I would air out here.

  1. Does anyone include with their FD packet a listing good / bad fabricators. Example most here agree old castle is one of the worst, do you have anything that would tell your customers that.

  2. Has anyone thought about some way to document which fabricating companies are the worst ones?

These question came about because of several things.
First after reading the interview that Jack Nelson had with the GANA guy some months ago and his faulty comparison to a silk shirt and dry cleaners. Going back to his analogy if every shirt is ruined in the cleaning process then the cleaning process is at fault. But if the shirts from one manufacturer are ruined 90% of the time, and another manufacturer is ruined 25% of the time and a third is ruined only 2% of the time, it can’t be the fault of the cleaning process.

The second thing that brought about these questions and more to the point of this post. We have been trying, without success, to get GANA to change its behavior. I have been thinking why not put the free market into use and recommend to our customer the fabricators that produce better glass, and warn them about the ones that produce the really bad glass.
If builders stop buying glass from companies that deal with old castle they will either have to change their practices or go out of business.
To be effective though it can’t be just because I say so, there would have to be some kind of documentation showing a certain amount of their panes or windows have FD in it.

These are some things I’ve been thinking about.

One of the links on the FD page of this forum is to Dan Fields site. On there he has a sample waiver for builders to glass suppliers which can hit suppliers in the wallet which will motivate a change in their habits. Also if we get a waiver signed and there are problems the builder will take the hit which can motivate them to change their buying habits as well.
As for good or bad suppliers I have never had a problem w/ PPG or Guardian but that doesn’t mean that they won’t slip at some time. That’s why it’s better to get the waiver signed and educate any builder or supplier who will listen. Eventually, when wcers stop allowing builders, suppliers, and fabricators to pass the blame on to them the problem will end up back in their lap where it belongs.

Perhaps the top 50 builders/builders suppliers in each window cleaners area could be targeted with a well thought out marketing letter & have details listed of findings of glass quality from each company on defective quality. Once the builders know that we know, the message will be passed on to home owners.
As you mentioned, this is better done by an organisation for window cleaners than window cleaners individually. When the drought threatened to stop water fed pole usuage in the UK government, the amalgamation of the “Federation of Window Cleaners”, “Association of Pro Window Cleaners”, “Ionics” & “Omnipole” fought for the right to use wfp & won.

How well has that worked?

As for good or bad suppliers I have never had a problem w/ PPG or Guardian but that doesn’t mean that they won’t slip at some time. That’s why it’s better to get the waiver signed and educate any builder or supplier who will listen. Eventually, when wcers stop allowing builders, suppliers, and fabricators to pass the blame on to them the problem will end up back in their lap where it belongs.

We’re talking about 2 different things. Going back to the GANA guy’s shirt analogy. You buy the shirt, and it gets ruined, you then go back and forth between the manufacturer, the retailer, and the cleaner, to fight over who has to pay for your ruined shirt.
You are then down the road going to need another shirt, so what do you do go buy the shirt knowing your in for that fight again, but you have to have the shirt. Until someone shows up and tells you if you buy from this other place you can avoid the problem.

I am not suggesting not having a waiver (I posted my packet in the business download section here all 18 pages of it). My question is since the threat if litigation hasn’t been so successful, has anyone thought of telling the consumers there is another choice, and telling the consumers who those other choices are.

My problem with recommending a company in writing to a potential customer, like in a packet, is that it could leave you vulnerable in a law suit. If you state that Guardian, PPG, or another brand is safe to use, and it some how scratches, couldn’t you be held liable?

i may say (and have done so) that I’ve never seen a problem with Guardian or PPG - but I don’t think I’d go so far as to put that in writing and promote it in a packet targeted to builders.

Having said that, I think you could also encounter certain legal problems insisting that all Old Castle or Arch glass (or anybody else) is defective. Saying that on forums such as these is one thing, but to promote the idea in writing to builders could present problems. Just a word of caution. Only state what you’ve seen and can back up with proof. Most Arch and Old Castle glass that I’ve seen has been low quality with fab. debris present, but I have seen a limited amount that appeared decent.

I think a builders packet that is general, yet filled with concrete facts, is best. You’ll be able to tell when a builder is serious about learning more - that’s when I would verbally point him towards companies we find that produce higher quality product.

And about the silk shirt… who wears silk shirts anymore? People stopped wearing them because you couldn’t clean them! LOL.

I inform the builder there are a couple of quality fabricators out there when dealing w/ this issue but they still need to sign a waiver. It’s part of my education when dealing w/ the issue up front. However, until proper washing procedures become a required (not just recommended) part of the tempering process there are no guarantees. I do agree that getting those that buy the glass to put economic pressure in the mix is a great idea. That’s why education is always part of my program w/ the waiver.
As for how well the builder to supplier waiver works you’d need to ask Dan since he deals w/ more CCU than most of the rest of us combined.

I’ve been cleaning windows for almost 30 years, and this has only recently become an issue, largely because I don’t do new construction cleaning. However, some of my homeowners have recently taken notice of scratches that have been on their glass FOR YEARS, and claim that this is a recent discovery.

Although this knew ability to see scratches is a topic for a psych forum, IMO, it’s the first time I have ever really considered tracking down their origins. I mean, I do a LOT of homes, some of which are old. Those homes, with their windows that are 30, 40, 50 years old, usually have a lot of scratches. I have chalked it up to the following:

[LIST=1]
[]incautious window cleaner with rusty razor blades
[
]incautious painters with rusty razor blades
[*]incautious day laborers on the builder’s payroll with rusty razor blades
[/LIST]

When a long time customer recently called me and asked me to look at what ~I~ had recently done, I took a critical look at this glass for the first time. What I found was that the glass had a LOT of long, hairline scratches on her 37 year-old sliding doors that ONLY went up and down. NONE of them went side-to-side, which is the way I habitually soap em and squeegee em. (That’s right. I don’t “swirl”. You may now pick your jaws up.)

She is just not hearing it. I suspect that since she has recently cut down some trees in the back yard, and gets a LOT more sun through those windows, she is now noticing what has been there for a long, long time. When there is no sun, in the afternoon, they are absolutely invisible. When I came by to see them, the had to shine a flashlight on them to make them show up.

So, what else could cause this? There is really no way I could have done this.

Hey Don!

Are they towards the bottom half on the outside? I have seen this before and it appeared to be from a dog scratching to get in the house.

If there is fabrication debris on the glass and someone used a razor to clean bird droppings or silicone or tree sap off they could have chosen to scrape up and down and what you are seeing are scratches from FD. If they are only on the bottom I’d agree w/ Chris that a dog could be responsible.

ATS-143
Technical Information 2005/07/20

Hand Cleaning
Pilkington Energy Advantage™ Low-E Glass and
Pilkington Solar E™ Solar Control Low-E Glass

Pilkington Energy Advantage™ Low-E Glass and Pilkington Solar E™ Solar Control Low-E Glass have very thin pyrolitic coatings integral to one of their surfaces. The hard and durable low emissivity top coating gives them improved thermal insulation performance compared to ordinary clear glass. The low emissivity coating has a very fine, hard texture which requires a slightly different cleaning procedure compared to plain, non-coated, glass. For suitability of cleaners not discussed here please contact the Architectural Technical Services Department of Pilkington North America, Inc. at 419 247 4448.

Routine Cleaning
Hand cleaning of the low emissivity coating, to visibly remove accumulated dust or fingerprints, can be accomplished using a number of different glass cleaning products:
Recommended Routine Cleaning Products
• Sparkle Glass Cleaner (purple colored liquid available from grocery stores),
produced by A.J. Funk & Co., Elgin, IL
• Windex Glass & Surface (clear liquid available from grocery stores),
produced by SC Johnson & Son, Inc., Racine, WI
• Mixture of one part vinegar with one to ten parts clean water.
In addition to the above products, commercially available vinegar-based glass cleaners have generally demonstrated an ability to provide a clean, streak free glass surface. Pilkington North America, Inc. does not recommend the use of ammonia-base or alcohol-base glass cleaners because these products tend to leave visible streaks.
Routine Cleaning Procedure:
• Flood the low emissivity coated surface with the spray-on cleaning solution or with a cloth saturated with the cleaning solution. Be generous with the amount of solution applied.
• Rub the wetted surface with a clean, lint free towel or cloth.
• Wipe dry with a dry, clean, lint free towel or cloth. Do not use a squeegee on the low emissivity surface.
• To prevent streaking, stop wiping when the glass is almost dry and there is still a uniform thin film of moisture left on the glass surface. This film will quickly evaporate leaving a clean surface.

GLASS CLEANING RECOMMENDATIONS PAGE 1/3
The Glass Association of North America (GANA) has published the attached glass cleaning recommendations titled “Proper Procedures for
Cleaning Architectural Glass Products.” The recommendations in this publication can be used for both commercial and residential glass
products.
These recommendations should be followed to reduce the opportunity of damage to glass surfaces during cleaning.
One excerpt from this publication specifically recommends that glass not be cleaned by use of sharp tools such as large razor knives or razor
blades.
“The glass industry takes extreme care to avoid glass scratches by protecting all glass surfaces during glass manufacturing and fabrication, as
well as during all shipping and handling required to deliver the glass to the end user. A large percentage of damaged glass results from nonglass
trades working near glass. This will include painters, spacklers, ironworkers, landscapers, carpenters and others who are part of the
construction process. They may inadvertently lean tools against the glass, splash materials onto the glass and/or clean the glass incorrectly, any
of which can permanently damage glass.”
SIMPSON’S RECOMMENDATIONS
One of the common mistakes made by non-glass trades people, including glass cleaning contractors, is their use of razor blades and other
scrapers on a large portion of the glass surface. Using metal blades to scrape a window clean carries a large probability for causing irreparable
damage to glass.
Simpson recommends that metal blades never be used to remove materials from glass surfaces. Any use of a metal blade or other inappropriate
or destructive cleaning techniques is at the risk of the owner/window cleaner and Simpson’s warranties do not cover glass scratching caused by
the use of metal blades.
GLASS PROCESSING – MANUFACTURING HISTORY
During manufacturing and processing, glass surfaces are exposed to a number of processes and materials, which can leave a residue on the glass
surface. During the manufacturing of float glass, coated glass, tempered glass and insulating glass, the glass surfaces are exposed to vacuum
cups, rollers, packaging materials (paper, cardboard, foam, cork, hot melt, etc.), glass production labels and the window manufacturer’s labels.
These materials that come in contact with glass surfaces during glass processing, window fabrication and installation can leave a residue on the
glass that is not visible under normal viewing conditions. These residues may become visible when moisture is present on glass (i.e. rain water,
condensation, etc.) and is not considered to be a glass defect and glass should not be replaced because of this condition.
By following the recommendations in this publication, scratching of glass products should be significantly reduced and the cleaning recommendations
listed will ensure that the glass will be cleaned according to industry recommendations.
Glass Information Bulletin GANA 01-0300
Proper Procedures for Cleaning Architectural Glass Products
Architectural glass products play a major role in the comfort of living and working environment of today’s homes and commercial office spaces.
By providing natural daylight, views of the surroundings, thermal comfort and design aesthetics, glass usage and condition often affect our
selection of where we live, work, shop, play, and seek education.
Architectural glass products must be properly cleaned during construction activities and as a part of routine maintenance in order to maintain
visual and aesthetic clarity. Since glass products can be permanently damaged if improperly cleaned, glass producers and fabricators recommend
strict compliance with the following procedures for properly cleaning glass surfaces.
As dirt and residue appear, interior and exterior glass surfaces should be thoroughly cleaned. Concrete or mortar slurry which runs down (or is
splashed on glass can be especially damaging and should be washed off as soon as possible. Before proceeding with cleaning, determine
whether the glass is clear, tinted, or reflective. Surface damage is more noticeable on reflective glass as compared with the other glass products.
If the reflective glass surface is exposed, either on the exterior or interior, special care must be taken when cleaning, as scratches to the reflective
glass surface can result in coating removal and a visible change in light transmittance. Cleaning tinted and reflective glass surfaces in direct
sunlight should be avoided, as the surface temperature may be excessively hot for optimum cleaning.

ATS-143
Hand Cleaning Pilkington Energy Advantage Low-E Glass and
Pilkington Solar E Solar Control Low-E Glass
2005/07/20
Page 2

Spot Cleaning
Occasionally spot cleaning may be required to remove stubborn dirt or foreign materials that have adhered to the low emissivity coated surface. Spot cleaning products can remove markings from grease, oil, tape adhesive, and crayons or other waxy materials as well as paint and rub-off marks from plastics.
Recommended Spot Cleaning Products:
• Soft Scrub mild abrasive cleaner (available from grocery stores),
produced by The Clorox Co., Oakland, CA
• Bar Keepers Friend (available from grocery store),
produced by Servaas Laboratories, Indianapolis, IN
• Denatured Alcohol, Acetone or “Goof-Off” (organic solvents available from hardware stores)
Spot Cleaning Procedure:
• Apply a small quantity of one of the cleaners listed above to a clean, wet cloth or towel.
• Rub on areas of glass needing spot cleaning.
• Wipe clean using a dry, clean, lint free towel or cloth and follow with the routine cleaning procedure given above.

Specialized Cleaning
Do not contact the low emissivity coated surface with razor blades, steel wool or other metallic objects. If metallic objects contact the coated surface, a thin layer of metal removed from the object may be deposited onto the coating which results in a discolored stain or mark the looks like a scratch. Such marks are not removed using the normal cleaning procedures given above but require specialized techniques.
Recommended Specialized Cleaning Products for Removal of Metal Marks, etc.:
• Muriatic Acid (available from hardware store).
• Acid Magic Muriatic Acid Replacement (available from hardware stores),
produced by Universal Chemicals & Supplies Inc., Div. of Certol International LLC, 6120 E. 58th. Ave., Commerce City, CO. Tel 800 843 3343.
• Steel Glo (available from grocery store)
produced by Steel Glo Products, Kansas City MO
Specialized Cleaning Procedure:
• Apply a small quantity of one of the specialized cleaning products listed above to a wet, clean cloth or towel.
• Rub on areas of glass needing cleaning.
• Wipe clean using a dry, clean, lint free towel or cloth. Follow with the routine cleaning procedure described above.
ATS-143
Hand Cleaning Pilkington Energy Advantage Low-E Glass and
Pilkington Solar E Solar Control Low-E Glass
2005/07/20
Page 3

The information contained in this bulletin is offered for assistance in the application of Pilkington flat glass products, but IT DOES NOT CONSTITUTE A WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Actual performance may vary in particular

You cannot use blades on some of the new glass and the waiver will not help you if you do.
Don’t use blades if the manufacture says no. I don’t want you to use the simpole as a baseball bat just because you can! Don’t be deceive that all glass can take blades and only defective glass will scratch ! Educate yourself or you will pay and you are on you own if you ruin good glass that is not defective! New coating New way to clean them.

These bulletins are dealing w/ self cleaning glass coatings. They are a different animal all together.
I will continue to get a waiver signed for all standard tempered glass. I don’t clean self cleaning glass so it’s not really an issue for me.
Don’t fall for GANA’s line that scrapers are scratching glass or that tempered glass is different or “softer”.

Scratched coating is not the same as scratched (defective) glass.

The scratches I am talking about are at almost eye level. I am familiar with animal scratches, and most of those even come off because they are not actually scratched, but what looks like scratches are actually residue from the nails themselves. I have removed them with a razor blade before. :slight_smile:

I’ll try to get a picture…

Don, I’m more than certain you are dealing w/ fabrication debris scratching. If you haven’t been to this part of the forum I’d suggest a visit. It should explain a lot. www.windowcleaner.com - Fabricating Debris

what about the part where it says that fabrication debris is NOT a defect in the glass? my mind is blowing up right now

During manufacturing and processing, glass surfaces are exposed to a number of processes and materials, which can leave a residue on the glass
surface. During the manufacturing of float glass, coated glass, tempered glass and insulating glass, the glass surfaces are exposed to vacuum
cups, rollers, packaging materials (paper, cardboard, foam, cork, hot melt, etc.), glass production labels and the window manufacturer’s labels.
These materials that come in contact with glass surfaces during glass processing, window fabrication and installation can leave a residue on the
glass that is not visible under normal viewing conditions. These residues may become visible when moisture is present on glass (i.e. rain water,
condensation, etc.) and is not considered to be a glass defect and glass should not be replaced because of this condition.

mind officially blown