Fabrication debris doesn't exist

don’t like the taste of pedestrian eh?

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I understand but I hunt and coach highschool marksmen team. We shoot competitive trap, skeet and ar.

Not all are designed to kill people.

If there is interest for further discussion this topic should have its own topic. Cant intrude on this one.

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Exactly, when construction debris gets on glass that shouldn’t be on there to begin with, why blame the window cleaner when removing such damage can further damage the glass regardless of methods, and assuming it isn’t already scratched? Anyone who feels the window cleaner should use methods that do not scratch, while that is impossible to guarantee, is insane. Maybe if you have a lot of experience or training from an experienced person or system in place to “minimize” scratches then that’s possible in my opinion yes, but not an easy task.

You can not guarantee you will not scratch glass, we’ve had this discussion before, its been proven, call it whatever you want. Maybe you @anon46335951 can clean mortor off tempered 100% without scratching (I doubt that very much), but that means nothing because your sample size isn’t macro, its very very micro, regardless of you non-entitled opinion.

Best to say:

“Hey prospective customer. Fabrication Debris was something I learned about on WCRA and turns out that information was wrong, the current information is a bunch of lunatics arguing about nonsense. However I can try to minimize the scratches but none of that stuff should be on the window to begin with. How would you like me to proceed? Here are my methods please do not ask about industry standards because the industry standard is a guillotine (razors and steel wool although manufacturers while covering their butt say not to use those even though mostly everyone does), or a lie (promise no scratches).”

“If you understand there are no industry standards that make sense and are universal, and you realize the risk involved in my method and accept that risk using my methods then great. I truly do not fully understand nor does any window cleaning community the science (apparently), however I will show you what I can do for you, and if this is acceptable, then here is my estimate and some references.”

have fun with that.

Blockquote

When the third party pharmaceutical company adds cyanide(sub gets mortor on window) you should blame the user (window cleaner) for dying(scratching) even though the doctor(contractor) asked him to take the meds (clean the windows).

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You really, really need to at least make an attempt at making sense.

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Blockquote

Not when we have many quotes from industry professionals and experts saying that you should not guarantee no scratches, and its wise to get a waiver, stupid not to. You are so set in your way and in denial that you reject this then no it won’t go anywhere. Even calling me lazy and all this crap just because your set in your ways.

P.s. I’m not claiming to be one of these industry professionals but I do back up those claims.

Bottom line, fabricating debris exists, no one wants to take ownership of it, cleaning construction debris from glass will cause microscopic scratches and more visible scratches too. Proceed with caution and find ways to keep it to a bare minimum.

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EXACTLY. But now we have the biggest association turning their backs on us. They’ve told us for years about fabrication debris, that now mysteriously doesn’t exist. Some people think this “discussion” is great, but the repercussions of this is going to end up hurting OUR bottom lines.

The “other” bottom line is, manufactures are creating and selling an inferior product. They have accepted NO responsibility for years, and now it seems the IWCA is licking their boots now, and turning on us.

IMO, what WE need to do is have an ironclad scratch waiver, and stop supporting those that turn on us. I have run into a situation more than once, that you can’t see scratch damage until you clean the glass. Guess who gets blamed part of the time without a waiver? We do.
We are in the unique position of being between the maker of an inferior product, and an installer who thinks it’s YOUR job to clean up their mess and pay for the damage they did.

Selling the magic coating isn’t necessarily the answer either. I’ve dealt with Anderson glass that was “protected” with this stuff or something like it. It did something to the glass that left it feeling tacky. I tried several different things to get it like it should be, to no avail.

It just seems like the IWCA just flipped us all the bird.

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I think the only thing we as a community can do is reject any ccu work from contractors that don’t monitor the other trades.

Let’s say we bid a job, but show up and it’s covered with mortar, paint etc. Walk away. Don’t renegotiate. Don’t provide waiver changes. Just walk.

Contractors do not care about your bottom line, just theirs. Walk on them for having sloppy subs and it will hit their bottom line. We talk forever about training our market to accept proper pricing. Why not train contractors to monitor their subs?

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Apologies to all for the tangent, and I don’t mean to derail the conversation, (please skip over this if you’d like), but I feel it’s important to address your point @anon46335951, if you actually look at the history of the subject, Big Pharma was actively pushing all opiates as completely harmless and non-addictive in their hopes of having the next ‘Blockbuster drug’. I highly recommend the book (or Audible audiobook) Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic. It’s an extremely fascinating story of the origins of this country’s current mass opiate addiction, and it all started with Americans trust in the medical establishment, and the medical establishment’s trust in the echo chamber of “established science” (i.e., pharmaceutical company marketing literature and propaganda).

Summarizing from the book, (https://www.drugrehab.com/opioid-epidemic-causes/)

"In the late 1970s, researchers from Boston Medical Center analyzed the medical records of hospitalized patients who had received narcotics. They found that of 11,882 patients who received narcotics, only four showed “reasonably well documented” symptoms of addiction and only one “major” instance of addiction.

Jane Porter and Dr. Hershel Jick wrote a five-sentence letter to the editor in the New England Journal of Medicine describing the analysis in 1980.

“We conclude that despite widespread use of narcotic drugs in hospitals, the development of addiction is rare in medical patients with no history of addiction,” the authors wrote.

The letter was not a peer-reviewed study, and it described only patients under doctor supervision in hospitals.

“If you read [the letter] carefully, it does not speak to the level of addiction in outpatients who take these drugs for chronic pain.”
DR. HERSHEL JICK, BOSTON UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER
In an interview for the book “Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opioid Epidemic,” Jick told author Sam Quinones “If you read [the letter] carefully, it does not speak to the level of addiction in outpatients who take these drugs for chronic pain.”

Quinones wrote that by the 1990s, Jick had forgotten about the letter.

But the letter became one of the most prominent resources for pain-relief advocates who claimed that less than one percent of patients treated with opioids became addicted. It has been cited by more than 900 studies since it was published."

Nurse Marsha Stanton told Quinones that she and other seminar speakers often cited it during the 1990s. “We all thought it was gospel,” she said."

And all across the country, for years, doctors cited this “scientific study” (which most had not actually read), and overprescribed these drugs for chronic pain, to patients which were slowly becoming addicted off their “properly” prescribed medications. Standards have gotten a bit better, but there are still doctors out there that will act as your personal drug dealers if you’ve got enough money.

And to bring this back to the subject back to window cleaning, I think this ‘announcement’ is an issue of money and corporate liability, not some new scientific breakthrough. Especially, as someone mentioned earlier, when you look at the work Dan Fields has done on the subject, having actual photographic evidence of this phenomena.

There is this…
19%20AM

I really do feel the only answer is to not do CCU. There’s no satisfactory answer. If the glass isn’t protected with a protection film readily available on the market today, just walk. I don’t know why this has to be such a commotion, seriously. Why on God’s green earth would anyone ever think that manufacturers would change the way they manufacture glass at a cost of probably hundreds of millions to change the manufacturing process, equipment, etc. Nothing’s changing. If you have contractors you work with, let them know you don’t do CCU anymore but you do provide protective filming for the job site and at the end you remove the film and standard clean the glass. It’s really more money for you in the long run. Or just walk.

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I don’t know what everyone else experiences, but I’ll share what I do…

I advertise my services as what they are. Premium services with attention to detail. I don’t do sloppy work, and people expect my work to be “the best they can get”. I don’t charge starving artist prices, nor am I a “Bob”.

While it’s true, most people look THROUGH the glass, when I am done they are looking AT the glass. While most times when I run into a first time clean, there is “crud” on the glass. Anything from paint, concrete, stone sealer, you name it. A fair percentage of my clients have never HAD a window cleaner before.
Which scenario leaves a good impression? “Sorry, I am not interested in the work. It’s obvious the builder didn’t protect the glass and the risk of scratching is too high” OR “Yes ma’am the price IS 4-6 times the price of a normal clean. I can’t use a blade to clean your glass, so I’ll be here for three days scrubbing with genital white pads and chemicals”.
Neither sounds like something people will accept and you’ll burn your own bridges.

There are also companies that hire me to do their construction cleans, AS WELL as their homes and commercial buildings. What would you have me tell them? “Sorry, unless you hire me or someone else to cover/protect the glass, I’m not going to clean your new buildings anymore”?

Everyone turning away all new construction isn’t the answer. You are not going to get most/all builders to protect the glass. And if no one cleans that new construction glass, you are shooting yourself in the foot. No one will see the value of cleaning the glass if it isn’t done from the get go. Even still, no one would clean the glass anyway, because today, or 10 years down the road, that construction clean has to be done before maintenance cleans are done…

We can point fingers at anyone we want. It comes down to this… The IWCA has hamstrung the window cleaners of the world. It’s akin to saying a squeegee is no longer an acceptable way of cleaning glass, we have to go back to the two rag method. After years of research and confirming that a squeegee was safe, now the experts say it isn’t. Pretty dumb to do so without giving us the tools we need to quickly, and safely get our jobs done. I certainly can’t/won’t support and organization that would do something like that to us. Only one of two things are possible. Either there were incompetent fools doing “research” before that was absolute junk science, OR the IWCA is in the pockets of glass manufactures and just took a big, steaming dump on the members that have supported it for a very long time.

No one is even discussing how much a square foot this protectant is, and how much we can make selling it. I can make 100+ an hour cleaning glass. How much am I going to make painting this stuff on? Where is the proof this stuff will actually guarantee protection and from what will it protect? Do the company/s that sell this protectant back it up with a warranty that covers your expenses if it fails?

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All they have done is acknowledged that since 2016 the glass manufactures and GANA have both stated that scraping of tempered glass with a 4-6" blade not a condoned method of cleaning glass , but what they also say if that the glass should be covered to prevent any debris so at the end of the day why is it only on us the window cleaners to be aware of the latest information available, every construction company should also be doing their due diligence to ensure they are working to the latest guidelines.

Because FD doesn’t exist, right?

So because contractors aren’t covering glass, and likely never will because it costs money, then what? We still need to clean the glass… They aren’t doing their job and the IWCA is saying no blades. so therefore you aren’t going to get the glass cleaned timely nor without substantially more effort which very few are willing to pay for.

They should be covered with a film at the factory, IF they all believe that really should be the standard. But, as we know, they aren’t.

There are manufacturers we have come across that do cover the entire glass from the factory. It can be done and some do. The only thing that needed to be construction cleaned we’re the tracks.

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Yes it can be done, I wish more would do it.

Tell them straight out, if I use a blade the glass with scratch. I can get it off without a blade but its much more laborious so its gonna be 5x more expensive.

I know of a build last year where they had to replace all the glass at the cleaners expense, and here unless your a registered company instead of a a business then they come after your personal assets. Basically if you have no employees and are less than 100k its not really feasible to go as a company as tax is higher starts from $1 earned vs $18600 before you need to pay tax and the $1000 a year company rego fees but a companies assets are all you can ask for in a lawsuit.

So for me its about my livelihood, if I do bend the rules and the glass gets scratched I could potentially lose my house just so a piece of glass can be cleaned in a faster manner.

I’ll just let a less experienced company who doesn’t keep them selves informed go out of business. less competition hehe

Earlier in the thread some were mentioning how the contractor should make the other trades cover the glass if working in the area.

I just wanted to point out that they ALREADY ARE.

You have every right to push the issue, especially if you bid it before that junk was on the glass.

The way I handle it is I charge based on time to take to clean it without scratching (without a razor) that includes materials (solvents etc…) per window…and tell them thats what THOSE windows will cost you in addition to the cost I gave you initially.

If I were you mr. general, I’d backcharge the so and so’s who left this mess or have them clean it up. I’d personally backcharge them because who they send to clean this off more than likely will scratch the glass pretty badly, and then your deadlines are going to be shot.

It doesn’t fall in to your lap and rest on your shoulders, but we are all supposed to be providing solutions to problems.