Employers-learn from Diego Garcia's tragedy

If you employed people, You would not take kindly to an employee asking every month IF you had workers comp insurance. You would not take kindly to them asking to see the account balance that you held their pay check money into either.

I think it goes beyond unreasonable to think it’s an employee’s responsibility to know that stuff. As an employer, you are responsible for more than just cutting them a paycheck.

I agree that an employee should NEVER do something that reasonably seems unsafe, it ultimately lays on the employers shoulders no matter what though. Unless they were high or drunk, the employer holds the blame.

I think what you are getting at, is people seem to want their employer to provide them with every thing their hearts desire, and sometimes it seems that way. But the reality is, employing someone is just another fine example of capitalism. You the employer, are going to offer them certain things in trade for their skills/labor/whatever. They can take your “deal” or move on to someone else offering what they think is better.

I think most people here will agree if you are an employee of some company, then certain things are at minimum, going to be part of that employment “deal”, like W/C, unemployment, and a paycheck that is paid on regular intervals.

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It has become the accepted norm for people to expect their employer to pay for everything. I do not know all of the circumstances of what happened here, but accountability does lie in each of our hands - employer and employee. Such a sad situation, but blame is for fault not for making a hired on position.

Perhaps Medicaid will kick in, but that is slim sell - I KNOW! When I broke my back with very limited insurance, Social Security and Medicaid wouldn’t help because they said I could go work in a bike shop as that was my previous work position. True statement - cross my heart! Then when I caught a bacteria infection and almost died from it - nope, Medicaid was just out of reach. Charity paid the lions share instead. Hopefully Diego fares better on that front than I did. But all positive vibes need to be funneled to this man to come out of the coma and get well first.

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Probably the first 4 years I was in business ( 25 years now ) I did that whole 1099 deal which was a lie. They WERE NOT sub-contractors. They WERE employees. I hate to say it but this industry and many other small business service companies like to get out of paying all benefits that are due their workers. It is irresponsible and inexcusable.

The law ( The IRS ) rules looks at your relationship to the worker and control vs independence. Look up " IRS - Ind. Contractor or Employee" to see the exact details. I know many fellow Window Cleaning Businesses that cheat on this. I was told by my Accountant and Insurance Co. that if it looks like a duck…they are. I was also told that if I treat what is an employee like a contractor and they get hurt I am toast. And if work gets low and they want to file unemployment on me, they can, even if I didn’t carry it. They will get the benefit and the State ( Ohio ) comes after me. I pay 18% of every $1.00 in payroll to cover the total cost of all these benefits including FICA and S/S. And guess what ? I sleep well.

I want to encourage those who are operating outside the rules and not being legitimate that it is not too late and make it priority to consult with a good CPA to set you up. Make sure you are in line guys. Sorry to sound preachy but this must be corrected in our industry to gain a higher level of professionalism and integrity and attract great people as employees. It is about being a responsible business owner.

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Amen! I couldn’t have said it better!

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once i had got good cover i made sure to use it in my marketing blurb "we have full employee and public liability insurance insurance " this sets you apart from the also-rans . i also bring the subject up if a prospective customer tries to cheapjack on me "no,i cant go silly low .not with the insurances for my workers "
and iv used it to justify price rises -folk understand insurance costs money so it doesnt sound like theyre being milked by a get rich quick policy . rather than upping price a fraction iv been jacking price up by a decent margin this year. "the lads insurance has upped " justifies it nicely

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It’s called corporate manslaughter in the UK. Owner gets sent to prison & a massive fine with a carry over to family of injured/deceased- you wouldn’t even risk it. Good to see the new window cleaning laws in the USA are looking to be an exact copy of UK law on the H&S safety front. You just need to tighten up the fines now.

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Which new US laws are you referring?

If you can spare a buck or two for your fellow window cleaner please do so here: - Window Cleaner Fall – Diego Garcia - We need your help!

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Although I don’t currently have employees right now, I have had employees in the past and I plan to hire on in the near future. As an employer I would choose to have workers comp but it’s more of a liability protection issue and a desire to have certain benefits as an employment compensation package so to speak. I think workers comp is a good thing but I don’t feel it should be a “requirement” for business owners.

The reason I feel this way is that I see it as an attitude against employers that they owe their employees something because their the evil capitalist who is getting rich off of the back of their employees and because of this their employees are entitled to certain things. No one owes you a job! If you want a job with workers comp then go start a company and purchase your own workers compensation. Don’t work for a company and complain about what they offer. You don’t have to work for them. No one is forcing you to work for their company. If you don’t want to start your own company then go apply with a company that carries workers comp. It’s that simple.

If the law doesn’t require an employer to provide workers comp then they are under no obligation to provide it and since you have a choice to work for them or not then their not “evil” or “sinister” or somehow “irresponsible” if they don’t carry it.

As an employee, if it is not required by law where you are employed (as some states do not require it), then you have a responsibility to make sure you are covered and it should be part of the hiring and negotiation process to clarify that workers comp is part of the agreement of your employment and get it in writting. This way you know your covered without having to constantly ask about it and if the employer drops it without telling you they are liable if you have an accident (as long as you are following safety guidelines).

If you want to wine that it’s too hard for you to follow up with your employer then it’s not that important to you. If their not required by law then the responsibility falls on you anyways. How do you ever know if your employer has it? Obviously if it’s the law then the employer is liable if he doesn’t carry it but if it’s not the law you have no way of knowing if they ar staying covered unless you make it part of your employment agreement.

If it’s not the law then it’s the employers choice wether to provide it or not and you have a choice whether to work for him or not. Instead of demanding he purchase it, go out and start your own company or go work for someone who carries it. If it’s not the law then I don’t see where anyone has a right to complain about it when they have a choice in who they are and work for.

I’m not here to be insensitive in any way to this specific incident. I’m just tired of the attitude of ou society that everyone owes them something. Get off your but and take care of yourself.

Let’s put the shoe on the other foot. If you told your employees that in order for them to be covered you would have to reduce their pay, how many of them would decide it’s not important to them? How many if them would take the higher pay and drop the workers comp? What if you fell asleep the business owner and injured yourself. Would your employees give up and extra couple dollars and hour to pay your bills? I’m sure some would but how many actually care as much about you as you feel you need to car about them?

When I first started hiring guys I had a friend work for me and his future brother in law. I worked along side of them and sometimes sent them out alone. There were times they made more than me because it was really slow (The didn’t know that). My employee/friend came to me one day and handed me a list. He said it was things they would like to see “in the company”. He had listed items like healthcare, company picnic etc. I don’t recall everything on the list. I was kind of floored at his boldness to hand me the list. He was making more for me then he had ever made before at any other job and at times he made more than me. I didn’t even have health insurance. The next day I handed him a piece of paper on it with a response. I listed each suggestion and beside it I listed the amount I would deduct from his pay to cover that expense and at the bottom it listed side by side his current pay and the new pay with benefits. I never heard another word about it.

Employees want to make all kinds of demands but when they have to cover the expenses from their own pocket they tend to change their attitude.

Again I agree with Carrying workers comp. I jus despise the idea that the employer is somehow “irresponsible” if he doesn’t carry it as long as it’s not required by law. If it’s required that’s completely different.

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Some logic

Workers comp is expensive. It also directly affects pay. It is part of the dollar value on your pay; could be the difference between $18 per hour and $15 per hour. Here in Florida it isn’t required unless you have 4 or more employees. Insurance Companies view employees as a liability by the rate at which they charge for you to have them.

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When you hire employees, you assume responsibility. You think you are going to get away with charging employees when they accidently break tools, or a customers stuff?

Would you look at your client and tell them they should ask your employee to pay for what they break?

Let’s get serious here. YOU are the guy holding the “risks” of business, and YOU are the guy that gets the rewards of that business. You don’t get to have it both ways.

If you aren’t making money off your employee’s labor, it’s YOUR fault. If you can’t man up and accept that you have to pay for things, since you wanted to be the guy making the big rewards for having a business, maybe you should stay solo or get a job.

Like it or not, when you employ people, you assume more risks. Just because you “gave” them a job, it doesn’t mean they owe you their left nut, nor do you own them yours.

With your attitude, I think you’d be better off solo. No one is going to want to work for the guy that thinks they should have nothing they aren’t buying on their own.

Happy employees make you money.

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Yea no chance id ever work for guy like this.
Hey bob youre doin really well. Makin me lots of money. Why dont ya bring the family over and have lunch. But next check ill be taking a hundo out to cover the hot dogs and pretzels you ate.

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I think your missing the point. It’s not about what either one of us would do. I myself would carry workers comp. It’s about defending e.ployers right to run his company the way he wants and not be subject to his employees. Most employers are now required by federal law to provide health insurance for full time workers. What’s next a required retirement plan?

The point is that I started a company to make money for myself. I bust d my butt for years with little money and no other source of income. I don’t owe an employee anything! They can start their own company. That said I am generous so I will pay as well as I can or as the margins will allow but I’m under no obligation to provide for anyone. I don’t even have to employ anyone. I can offer a wage for a worker and if they want to accept that wage then that’s their business. They don’t have to work for anyone. The idea that an employer is evil because he doesn’t provide certain things is rediculous when no one has to work for him and they can work anywhere else or even start their own. Instead they want to demand a minimum wage of 15 an hour to flip burgers!

My comments have nothing to do with what I would personally do but rather my desire to defend employers rights. To run their company how they choose and compensate their employees. I place just as much responsibility on employees for their own lives.an employer is not requir d to provide jack for his employees other than what they agreed on to start with or what the law requires.

Here’s the question though…

If the employer advertises “fully insured”, and is not, is it still just him running it how he wants?

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That’s not an employee employee issue which is a different issue altogether That said that would be false advertising which would be illegal.

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I totally understand where you’re coming from although we live in a totally different Society than years back.

People used to work hard at their job starting at the bottom and working their way to the top whereas today people feel they’re obligated and deserve a job and that job needs to support their needs.

A business owner is viewed as being wealthy which is not the case as so many are small businesses just getting by.

I don’t believe anybody should be able to tell me how to run my business, who I need to hire, what nationality, gender and so on… I should be able to hire the best person for the position I have open that’s it.

Being an employer should be taken as a huge responsibility and many don’t view it as that. Profit can be the only thing that matters and unfortunately makes for a uneven playing field to compete in.

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The unfortunate facts.

Many companies won’t carry work comp unless it’s required of them.

Many employers don’t really care how their jobs get done as long as they get done.

The worst is employees don’t mind working outside safe working practices and believe an accident won’t happen to them.

This.

Whether you carry insurance or not for employees… this does NOT excuse you from the responsibility to every human being that steps foot on your job site.

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