and no solvents can be used either.
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I get mine through a friend who does tinting
āsince chemicals void the IG warranty AS do razorsā, I think you meant to say.
I do not violate my customerās warranty, if it all possible. And if I have to, whether through razor or chemicalā¦ yes. I let them know that their warranty will be voided, if they choose to have us proceed with a full cleaning.
These guys donāt even take the time to remove the screens let alone cover them
how can they ever be comfortable with that decision?
Michael - the razor voiding the warranty is a recent thing. Only if the windows have had the no razor sticker upon installation is it an issue. The stickers have only been around a couple years so windows older than that are a different matter.
What does the average customer know about the warranty and how will they know it was voided?
Letās face it - there is no safe way of cleaning glass now. The manufacturers donāt care because they got their money once the builder or homeowner bought the window. If the cleaning process voids the warranties in any way they win that way too. In the middle is the cleaner and the homeowner who now have to figure out how to deal w/ this ugly problem. Itās not their fault and certainly isnāt ours.
The real difference for me is that any scratches can be fixed. A blown seal - maybe, maybe not.
What are you looking to get away with?
Donāt forget the painters and window film installers
How about we all ask manufactures how they would get certain stains off without voiding the warranty.
The manufactures make the glass they should know how to clean certain stains off.
Every one has a way but it doesnāt satisfy the manufactures.
So if weāre not doing it right, how about the manufactures show us how itās done.
Why is it everybody has to find the solution to this problem ways of removing stains off what ever new glass.
Manufactures can only tell you that it is the wrong way.
Whereās the right way?
Manufactures of glass have an obrogation to the people they sell there product to, by means of telling them the most efficient way to remove stains off.
Not only educate there customers that buy the product off the manufacturers.
But at lest tell them the right way to get off certain stains.
This is regardless how or what put the stain on itās there how can we get it off.
But they choose to talk there way around the matter.
This argument would never hold up in court. The manufactures (regardless of how you feel about them) have a point. They delivered a scratch free/ stain free product. The builder, painter, home owner, landscaper (points sprinklers at windows, duh) etc didnāt take proper care of the product. How is that the manufactures responsibility? We as window cleaners try to be the heroes and rid the windows of these problems then blame the manufacturer when things go wrong ( scratches, blown seals, etc.) Why?
If I bought a $500 shirt then stuck my leaky pen in the pocket, thereās no way I can go after Armani because of my misshap.
what if there was a teeny-tiny tag on the shirt that said āDo Not Insert Pens Into Pocket. Shirt May Cause Pens to Explodeā? Wouldnāt you think it would then be Armaniās problem?
(assuming that windows being cleaned is about as standard and simple a thing as a pen being slipped into a shirt pocket)
maybe you are not understanding my analogy. Iām not saying the shirt caused my pen to leak. Iām saying that I am responsible for getting a stain on the shirt which is made of delicate fabric. That is why I canāt go to Armani and say itās there responsiblity to tell me how to remove such a stain.
Look, the bottom line is, if the manufactures say donāt use razors on their glass or else, then donāt use razors. And if Armani says ādry clean only" and I throw the shirt into my regular washer and dryer and end up ruining the shirt, who am I to say "but Iāve always used my machines to clean my shirts.ā one has to adapt.
that is a false analogy. The window manufacturers actually say something akin to ādo not machine wash. do not dry clean.ā Soā¦ how the heck are you supposed to get this nice Armani shirt clean???
Maybe Iāll try dry cleaning Marvin windows from now on. I donāt think thatās prohibited by the manufacturer. Yet.
If Armani says dry clean only, then that is what you do. And if itās a stain that can only damage the shirt if you use other methods, then you/I have ruined the shirt.
Window manufactures do say how to clean their glass. Several folks have posted examples on this forum. The problem is, if some idiot gets cement, paint, etc. (equivilent to my ink stain anaology) on the glass then the person who got the debris on the glass is responsible. Because this isnāt typical dirt, this is excessive.
All Iām saying is that glass is being produced nowadays that has a potential to scratch if you use a razor (so they tell you not to use them)
Contractors are likely to get paint, cement, etc. on glass but often refuse to cover the glass and protect it.
Home owners point sprinkler systems towards their glass resulting in hardwater stains.
Then we come along, see the problem, know the risks but continue to try to be the hero. As long as we do that, non of the other (above) liable parties will change their ways.
one has to adapt
There are no problems, only solutions. Think outside the box.
This debate goes on and on and on and on.
It seems that no matter what a WCer does, theyāll be voiding a warranty. But you do have to think of it this wayā¦ we provide a LUXURY service, not a NECESSARY one. If any one homeowner / prop manager / etc wants new windows cleaned, it it not up to us, the window cleaner to decipher a page of legalspeak on the warranty ever day. If it was, Iād sell my dang business.
It is our job to safely and effectively clean the glass, and to know the issues that can come up with any one type of windowā¦ I.E. OldCastle = a FD nightmare etc. Once a client has contracted you to do something that the glass manufacturers apparently donāt want us to do, you have educated the customer and HAD YOUR WAIVER SIGNED, well, its game on. Waiver signed and you pull up FDā¦ well, thats what the waiver is for.
The whole attitude of āonce its out of the factory its not our problemā that the glass industry has adopted should be reciprocated the window cleaning industry as āyou made a crappy product, I found your defects, and its not my problemā.
Hereās another analogy that is closer to our industry.
The whole time Iāve been posting responses here, I have been doing so by typing on a glass screen on my ipad. Now here is Appleās instruction for cleaning the screen.
[I][COLOR=āblackā][U]Handle your iPad with care[/U] to maintain its appearance. If you are concerned about scratching or abrasion, you can use one of the many cases sold separately. To clean iPad, unplug all cables and turn off iPad (press and hold the Sleep/Wake button, and then slide the onscreen slider). [U]Use a soft, slightly damp, lint-free cloth.[/U] Avoid getting moisture in openings. [U]Donāt use window cleaners, household cleaners, aerosol sprays, solvents, alcohol, ammonia, or abrasives to clean iPad.[/U] iPad has an oleophobic coating on the screen; simply wipe iPadās screen with a soft, lint-free cloth to remove oil left by your hands. The ability of this coating to repel oil will diminish over time with normal usage, and [U]rubbing the screen with an abrasive material will further diminish its effect and may scratch your screen.[/U][/COLOR][/I]
Now if I get a sticky substance on my ipad screen and the only thing thatāll remove it goes against Appleās recommended cleaning methods, I canāt throw this back at them and complain because they didnāt offer a solution for removing [U]every[/U] type of debris. Theyāll just tell me that I ruined the screen, and theyāll be right.
Iām not siding with the manufacturers. Iām just looking at more ways to keep me out of the liability loop. And if that means passing on some jobs, then so be it. We often hear on WCR and other forums that there is more than enough glass to go around and that goes the same for glass that doesnāt require razoring.
this is not an even comparison. An even comparison would be if they found a new cotton that was cheaper to manufacture but it could not be machine washed and all clothing manufacturers started using it. Now guess what you canāt machine wash any clothes. Now that would cause a problem.
The FD issues didnāt happen in a bubble. For as long as can be remembered razors and broad knives were being used on glass with no problem of scratches. The problem started when they instituted tempered glass. Even the manufacturing industry put out an article pointing to the problem of dirty rollers used to put glass into the tempering ovens. They know what the problem is and donāt want to fix it. The main reason this problem has not been corrected is because the consumer does not know the problem exists. When they see scratches they blame who they think caused the problem which is the painter, window cleaner etc. If they knew the real problem they would not except defective glass from the manufacturers.
I donāt want the manufacturers to dictate to me how to clean the windows. There way may not be the most effective way. I want the option of figuring new innovative and more efficient ways to clean the glass so I can continue to improve my company. Iām not a lackey for glass and window manufacturers, Iām an entrepreneur and a concerned window cleaner who wants to maintain control of my company and industry. The manufacturer is not considering you bottom line when they dictate how to clean the window. If you let them decide then we have lost control of our industry and subjected it to the whims of glass and window manufacturers.
When I used to read these threads about FD I used to think ya ya, blah blah blah. I was just tired of dealing with the problem. Until The manufacturers began to say that they would void warranties if a razor is used. Now with them putting the low-e on the exposed glass itās getting ridiculous. The consumer doesnāt understand that it is a problem. We do! That means like it or not itās up to us to challenge these issues.
The FD problem is not a mystery, but the manufacturers want people to think so. There is an easy solution. Its a manufacturers problem and they want to make it our problem to deal with. They are only doing this because they know they have more clout than us as an industry. Heck whether you care about being able to use a razor or not that should **** you off just based on principle! Where being pushed around as an industry by a much bigger industry. Lets grab a roll of quarters and make them sorry they thought they could screw with us! Quit trying to be politically correct and in appeasing the situation. Lets confront it head on. We know the problem! Here we are arguing among ourselves when it should be the manufacturing industry that should be arguing!
